FROM DNA TO LILY

Exclusive interview with Pastor Chen Yihao passionately talks about "Disciples Family Church"

Interview/Ma Lin and Wu Xian

Picture provided/Ma Lin, file photo of this publication

Since 2001, when he was in his early forties, Pastor Chen Yihao succeeded Pastor Liu Fuli, who was transferred to be the president of Zhengdao Evangelical Theological Seminary. He has served as the senior pastor of the Los Angeles Taifu Christian Church, the oldest and largest in the Taifu system. After ten years of service, more than a thousand people attended Sunday gatherings, and messages of condolences from all parties, he announced his resignation from his current position. Since 2011, he has devoted himself to promoting the "Disciple Family Church" movement. What kind of pastoral, nurturing and missionary structure is this? What kind of church and pastoral views are involved behind this? Why would Pastor Chen Yihao be so desperate and never look back? What is it that makes him so passionate? This magazine specially conducted an exclusive interview with Pastor Chen, hoping to bring forward-looking, challenging, breakthrough, and practical reflections and inspiration to readers who care about the future and ecology of the church.

Q: In what stages can the challenges and learning you have experienced in church service over the past twenty-five years be roughly divided? Let us know what has driven you step by step to get to where you are now.

List: 1985 was the starting point of my ministry journey. I first served as pastor of sacred music at Taifu Church (Loft) in Los Angeles. I was also responsible for discipleship training, working with the then senior pastor, Rev. Liu Fuli. I have been enthusiastically promoting worship and praise since 1989. This is completely innovative in traditional churches, and I was actually the first person to promote it!

“At that time, you were leading worship and praise, and every time the worship team raised their hands, a member came to my office and said that when these people on the stage raised their hands, they were covering the face of God! "This was revealed to me in 2008 when President Liu Fuli was writing the preface to my book "Singing on the Tree of Life", recalling the situation at that time. This shows how huge the challenge was during the promotion process, and how seamlessly Pastor Liu protected me at that time! He supported me 100% and allowed me to convey the vision and live out the vision. The church members gradually accepted, integrated, and became involved. Very grateful!

▲"Worship God with the heart of a child" is the material of the worship and praise course taught by Pastor Chen Yihao, breaking through the Chinese concept of defining relationships by "work achievements".

When I was in charge of "disciple formation" at Loft, I originally thought that I would be successful by encouraging members to read the Bible at home and come to church to attend Sunday school and edification courses, but I didn't expect that the results were insignificant. Only then did I realize: People’s lives need to be changed, and it can’t be learned in class!

The second stop on my ministry journey was serving as the senior pastor of the Southern Taiwanese Church in Houston (1995-1998). I encountered some bottlenecks in the service process, and I longed for a breakthrough. I faced many struggles, and was deeply disappointed... Only later did I discover: It turns out that the traditional Chinese concept is to define relationships based on "work achievements"! It turns out that I have been serving God with a “slave’s heart”!

I realized that grace means that when people serve God, they are servants in nature and children in status. It is very important for those who serve the Lord to know this grace! This grace enables me to no longer struggle and suffer because of my external performance and my own behavior! This grace enables me to have the heart of a child and to worship God. If a person does not have the heart of a child, it will be difficult for him to worship God and draw close to Him. Only by standing in this grace can we worship God with the heart of a child. This is a concept of worship that needs to be updated in Chinese culture. It has become the material for my worship and praise courses now.

The third stop of my ministry journey was when I returned to Taiwan in 1999 to promote the "Sentient Heaven Music World", which was to promote the concept of local worship. In Chinese culture, how do we return to the status of children and have a healthy interaction with God? We publish many local hymns and bring them to places of suffering to serve people in suffering. In fact, the name "Sentimental Heaven" comes from "Sentimental Heaven in a Ruthless World", which means to show how Christians can preach God's love to the world in a world of ruthless suffering.

The fourth stop was when he returned to Luofu in 2001 as the senior pastor, mainly interacting with leaders, preaching visions and serving on the podium. The biggest challenge is that leaders are leaders. Everyone wants to make a difference and has their own ideas about service, so the first few years are all about integrating the vision. 2004 was a turning point. Luofu started the evangelism strategy of the "Alpha Life Inspiration Course". Within a year, about a hundred people were baptized as a result of participating in this course! This was a big breakthrough and a great learning experience for me.

2007 was another turning point. At that time, I began to think: the church needs to break through and multiply. From the perspective of the structure of the modern church, the physical facilities of the venue will limit growth. There are 1,000 people in Luofu Church, and the lobby can seat 900 people. However, the parking lot and the fellowship classroom are not enough, so we thought of a home group gathering, hoping to break through the limitations of the hardware.

▲Gathering at home can break through limitations such as lack of church hardware facilities and venues.

At the same time, I personally continue to learn how to get close to God and listen to God’s voice. In the past, when faced with major events, we had to seek God’s will and pray together. Now I am learning to listen to God’s voice alone and experience a very close relationship with God. I discovered: After getting closer to God, God will speak to me! After more and more experiences like this, I suddenly realized that this area was something I had ignored in the past.

I combined this experience with the concept of a disciple and saw that the most basic spirit of the New Testament is that God wants to write the law into our hearts through the Holy Spirit. To put it simply, it is how I can activate the indwelling Holy Spirit more and move more freely in my life, leading me to follow Jesus and know the will of God. These discoveries were a huge breakthrough for me! But it has a huge impact on the brothers and sisters! Therefore, I told them again and again: "The most important thing to you is not to listen to the pastor's teachings, but to listen to the voice of God. Please do not listen to the pastor's sermons instead of hearing the voice of God."

Q: So, what are the bottlenecks in discipleship cultivation and pulpit service in traditional churches that you can no longer turn a blind eye to and stick to the old ways?

List:As far as discipleship training is concerned, churches often think that as long as they send people to "classes" for training, those who walk out of the classroom after the class are "disciples." Yes, it is important to attend classes, just like medical students have to attend classes for many years, but how do they start their internship? Of course, he should be led by a senior doctor, and he should actually observe how the senior doctor does it clinically. The theory and practice will confirm each other. After gradually mastering the practical operation essentials, it is time for him to do it, with the teacher guiding him. This is called inheritance, or discipleship training. However, traditional churches usually stop at the completion of classes and the training is over.

How do I view discipleship? It is not about bringing people to be “my disciples” or “my sheep.” Many preachers call their members his sheep, but in fact they are all Jesus’ sheep, not our sheep. So they interpreted John Chapter 10: Jesus laid down his life for the sheep, and I will lay down my life for the sheep. Jesus can recognize the sheep, and I, as a pastor, must also know each sheep and call them by name. However, to be honest, in a church with thousands of members, I really don’t know how I can call everyone by name! So I say to my church members, "You are not my sheep, you are Jesus' sheep."

When I pastor my core colleagues, my ultimate goal is to bring them to God so that they can directly connect with God through the Holy Spirit and cultivate an intimate relationship, so that they will grow in the future. For example, Paul and Timothy worked together for a while. After Timothy learned the lesson, Paul left him and it was a long time before he wrote him a letter. What Paul did was disciple making.

I began to realize that the most basic spirit of the Bible is: the law in the Mosaic covenant was written on tablets of stone, and the New Covenant was written on the tablets of human hearts through the Holy Spirit. Therefore, it is very important to activate the Holy Spirit indwelling the disciple, and then through the Holy Spirit, he can hear the voice of Jesus, receive direct teaching from Jesus, and slowly bear the fruit of the Holy Spirit. When you see that he is closely connected with the life of the Lord, you have to send him out. You do not want him to listen to you forever, because he can start to lead others. This is my idea of discipleship.

Regarding the pulpit service, I summarized the intensive preaching experience over the past fifteen years and found a difficulty: the preacher’s sermons can bring some touching to the members, but its life influence is short-lived, because many believers rely on the pastor’s guidance. Preaching instead of feeding directly from God! But it is not as good as a pastor telling his church members “God loves you” a thousand times to hear God say “I love you” to him once, which can be deeply engraved in his soul.

If a pastor is entangled in many services but insists on squeezing out what he does not have, it will be very difficult in the end. Therefore, whether the service on the podium is based on searching for information, or whether it is based on the expression of inner life and prayer, the result is absolutely different. When I began to learn to listen to God’s voice, I discovered that as long as I was connected to God, I would receive an endless flow of information. In the past, it often took eight hours to prepare a sermon, but after I developed the habit of drawing close to God, I found that there were often revelations from God, and after spending another two or three hours sorting them out, I could feed the congregation.

The biggest trap of the traditional church’s pulpit is that it makes the congregation feel that the pastor has spoken very well, and then they feel satisfied, so they use the pulpit to replace hearing the voice of God and to have an intimate relationship with God. This is really dangerous! I find it more important to teach the congregation how to receive directly from God! This is the most important concept in my current discipleship training.

Q: Please summarize the Chinese church models you currently know, and describe the positioning of the “disciple house church” in your mind.

List:Basically, I divide churches into three models: Institutional Church/Cell Church/House Church. God uses all kinds of churches. Disciple house churches are designed for people who thoroughly want to be disciples. Pastor Rick Warren proposed that a healthy church should have five circles: community, crowd, congregation, and commitment. (committed), and finally the core (core).

Pastor Rick Warren analyzed that the church should reach out to the community and attract people from the community. Some of the people will become members. When it comes to this circle, many traditional churches do not have this circle of devotees, so they go directly to the core, that is, they choose from among the members. Send out some enthusiastic people to lead the church. This group of core co-workers has not undergone discipleship training. Do you think: will the church be in chaos? Does the church use human methods? As a result, many disputes arose. Therefore, Pastor Rick Warren pointed out that you need to find some committed people among these members, train them to become disciples, and then select the core among them, and then the church will be healthy.

However, whether it is a traditional church, a small group church or a family church model, the key to success or failure lies in discipleship training! Some small churches originally had thirty members, but twenty years later, they still had thirty members! What they need is discipleship training, to help members become disciples of the Lord and grow up. I believe that without the formation of disciples, the church has no hope!

What I mainly promote is discipleship cultivation. Family church is just another church model that extends from the DNA of disciples. At present, my position is: to be the Lord’s disciple myself and to lead others to be the Lord’s disciple. That's my mission statement.

Q: Can you further elaborate on the core concept of “Disciple Family Church” that fills you with enthusiasm and hope?

List:The "Father Church" I am talking about now started with Neil Cole, who proposed a DNA theory of "Organic Church". My translation is as follows:

‧D：Define Truth, Incarnate Spirituality.
‧N：Nurturing Relationship, the cultivation of loving relationships.
‧A：Apostolic Mission, the mission of loving souls.

Cornel pointed out that the key to growth and breakthrough in Christian life is to be connected to Christ Jesus. This is D. You have a direct relationship with God, and God must speak to you and guide your life. Through Bible reading, prayer, meditation, silence, and the environment, you must always ask God: "God, what do you want to say to me?" What are you trying to impress me? What are you guiding me?” This has become the key to me leading disciples now. It is not that I tell you what guidance God has in your life, but that you have to seek it yourself.

Next, Christians need to have one or two disciple partners with whom they can cultivate a loving relationship. This is N. If God tells you something, you can ask Him to pray for you so that you can gain strength from God to complete it; if there are weaknesses in your life that God has been moving you to overcome, you can ask Him to support you and be responsible for each other in life. When you open yourself up and share your life deeply, your fellow disciples will not criticize, judge, condemn, or spread rumors.

To carry out deep sharing, you must have a relationship of discipleship and partnership. Two or three people are enough, not twenty or thirty. In Matthew 18:15-17, the Lord said that if someone sins against you in the church, you should deal with the relationship with them. If he doesn't accept it, bring one or two more people with you, that is, two or three people to deal with life issues together. I found that traditional churches pay more attention to messages from the pulpit, but after listening to many teachings in the congregation, many people still go their own way and do what they want! But two or three of us can truly work together to deal with the crux of life's problems. This is the cultivation of loving relationships.

A means that Christians cannot always gather together, but must be sent out to non-Christians, interact with them, love them with the love of Jesus, pray for their needs, and give them the opportunity to become children of God. Jesus said, "You are the salt of the earth." When Christians gather together in isolation from the world, they not only lose the function of salt, but also create a situation of "you salt me, and I salt you." Just think about my own lifestyle. I spend more than 90% of my time with Christians and have very few non-Christian friends. This is the typical life of a preacher and the life situation of many Christians in churches. We must re-examine our lifestyle: Are we following Jesus’ great commission to “go and make disciples of all nations”?

The above is the basic theory of DNA. Because DNA is the gene of life, if the DNA is normal and healthy, it will naturally grow well. So the emphasis is on health, not growth. The most important thing for a Christian is these three levels of relationships. If I cultivate the DNA of Jesus, I will naturally bear fruit.

This is a pastoral structure of "two or three people", which is very different from a small group church. A small group church leader (or a deputy group leader) has to deal with ten to fifteen people. Care work is not easy and will burn out quickly. In the Disciples Family Church, as long as you first cultivate the three-layer relationship of your personal DNA, you will definitely experience God! The most important thing for you is how to listen to the voice of God. This is also the key to your discipleship partner, and then he will make another disciple, and his life will begin to be healthy. How many people does he have to shepherd? It’s just two people, it’s very relaxing.

For example, if two people, A and B, do DNA work, and one person is brought to believe in the Lord, then there are three people; then another person is brought in, and then there are two sets of DNA, like cell division. In this way, you will never get tired and can always focus on your life and living instead of focusing on your ministry. It only takes two or three people to start. The house church I am looking for now is this kind of disciple house church.

Q: You have repeatedly mentioned "discipleship training that is different from traditional practices" before. Can you explain more in depth how to implement it under the "disciple family church" model you proposed?

List:The spirit of the New Testament is that everyone has the indwelling Holy Spirit, and you should seek God’s guidance for you. In this way, only those I lead can be disciples of the Lord Jesus. If they are only my disciples forever, a phenomenon will occur: students cannot be higher than their teachers. Jesus led Paul, Paul led Timothy, and Timothy led Timothy’s Timothy... In this way of leading disciples, Paul would not be higher than Jesus, and Timothy would not be higher than Paul. As a result, One generation is worse than the other!

Colossians 1:28 says:"We preach Him with all wisdom...to present everyone perfect in Christ."What Paul did was to bring Timothy into Jesus and tell him that the Holy Spirit was indwelling him and that he should seek God through the Holy Spirit. He was the sheep of the Lord Jesus, not Paul’s sheep. I, Paul, was just his mentor. The Lord’s sheep will listen to what Jesus says to them. Therefore, the concepts of "listening to God's voice" and "disciple making" are combined.

Discipleship requires basic teaching and training. I will establish an organization called LILY Ministry Center. LILY is the prefix of "Lord, I love you." There are four main courses: being a disciple of the Lord, listening to the Lord’s voice, reading the Lord’s words, and preaching the Lord’s gospel. described as follows:

First, being a disciple of the Lord

How do you know you are following Jesus and not your humanity, the ideas of the world, past hurts, and the traditions of the church? Going back to the Bible, from Genesis Chapter 1 to Chapter 11, I found that God’s intention is intimacy and love. However, after the fall, man relied on himself and no longer called on the name of the Lord. Talented people are especially It is easy to fall into this situation (see Genesis 4:16-23). Many people do not truly call on the name of the Lord, but rely on their own talents to serve God. How do you know whether what you are doing is God’s work or whether you are building the Tower of Babel? The focus is on Genesis Chapter 2. Are you dear to God and intimate with others? This relationship of horizontal and vertical union is the greatest satisfaction and need of people. So your intimacy with God and with your fellow disciples is most important. I told the brothers and sisters that our church may be very big, but God does not care how many people gather here. God cares how many people are disciples.

Second, listen to the Lord’s voice
To learn how to activate the indwelling Holy Spirit, you must get close to God. The closer you are to God, the more God will speak to you. If you are always in God's presence, how can God not speak to you? God will definitely tell you His secrets. The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever (see Deuteronomy 29:29). When you do the obvious things, God will reveal His mysterious things to you. What's the obvious thing? That is, if you draw close to God, love God, and let the indwelling Holy Spirit come to life, God will of course reveal His mysteries through the Holy Spirit. “Eye has not seen, ear has not heard, and the human heart has not imagined what God has prepared for those who love Him.” (1 Corinthians 2:9) So the most important thing is to love God and draw close to God in prayer.

Third, read the Lord’s words
How to read the Bible? You have to be able to read it yourself, don't always rely on others to tell you. Many old Christians are still searching the Bible after thirty years, and then say: God’s words are too mysterious! I can't understand it in my life. No! You must know how to read the Bible to feed yourself, instead of relying on pastors and teachers for thirty years. Once you know how to read God's Word to feed yourself, you can begin to lead disciples.

Fourth, preach the gospel of the Lord
After knowing how to be the Lord’s disciple, listening to the Lord’s voice, and reading the Lord’s words, the most important thing is to preach the Lord’s gospel! By cultivating the discipleship lifestyle of DNA, we enter the life circle of non-Christians, make friends with them, observe their needs, and know how to care for them with practical actions. This is the evangelism of life relationships. Then learn personal sermons, power evangelism (praying for their illnesses and needs...), and how to do group evangelism, such as the Alpha course.(Editor's note: This enlightenment course is designed for those who are unwilling to attend church and new believers. It allows participants to explore the meaning of life through relaxed meals and discussions.)These are all trainings in "preaching the gospel of the Lord." Only by being guided by the Holy Spirit in everything can we bear witness to the Lord. This is the importance of D in DNA!

After learning the above four lessons, that is, after completing discipleship training, they can be sent out. Two or three people can start a DNA group and open up another disciple family church. Then, we can build a "network center" to become their resource connection center.

▲More than four people can become a family church.

Q: Please describe the church pastoral blueprint that you think is worthy of your full efforts in the future, and explain the specific steps to achieve it.

List:My ideal church pastoral blueprint contains three levels:

The first level is called DNA, which is not a party, but a lifestyle of discipleship that is practiced every day.Your daily Bible reading and spiritual practice are all in the life of DNA, and you have one or two partners who often serve each other in life. This is the cultivation and implementation of the incarnation of life.

The second level is the disciples' family church, which gathers once a week. Two or more DNA groups, that is, more than four people, can become a family church.Family churches must be built on the foundation of DNA. During the gathering, everyone shares their lives. For example, how did I experience God this week, or am I at a low point? Please pray. You can bring non-Christian friends to this party to see how Christians live, so you can also preach the gospel and support each other in life.

The third level is LILY, which is a resource network center and a gathering point for disciples’ home churches. Its main functions are celebration, training, and teaching.This house church may have ten or twelve people. If ten house churches come together, there will be more than a hundred people. If they gather on average once a month, just like a conference, they can conduct teaching and training and bring the kingdom to the world. Bringing in the best talents and resources.

LILY does not need a church, nor does a family church need a full-time pastor. You may ask: What does a full-time pastor do? Do we still need full-time pastors? Of course! The main key is: How do we implement the theological idea of “all men as priests”? If we follow the direction of discipleship house churches, the parents or group leaders of the house churches are "believer priests." A full-time pastor may connect fifty house churches, and he can shepherd 500 people, because he only needs to combine these three levels When connected, the special needs of family churches can be met.

LILY is a resource network center that connects many family churches, but family churches need to be based on the DNA life of disciples. In this way, if everyone goes to become disciples, the family church will be wonderful, and there will be many resources when gathering together to celebrate. If the family church has not established itself as an "institution", it can use Lily as its financial center. However, since it does not require hardware or many pastors,I give it a 2-4-4 principle, that is, half of it is used for missionary work, a quarter is used to help those in need in the family church, and the other quarter is used for Lily's administrative expenses.

I have been thinking about how the Bible teaches that “all men are priests”. In fact, it is very simple. Everyone has a relationship with God. This is DNA. Some people are afraid: Will they go astray? In fact, it just depends on whether your DNA is healthy or not. If you have D but not N, that is a strange sign of charismatic grace. You only listen to God’s voice and don’t care about others. If you only have N, it's better to be brothers with everyone, that's a club. If there is only A but no D, it means doing ministry, and evangelism becomes a career and a sense of accomplishment. So DNA cannot be separated. As long as your DNA is normal, you are healthy and normal.

I am determined to cultivate disciples, and I know it is not easy, but in the long run, the impact will be far-reaching, especially in missionary work. In some areas of the world, if more people gather together, the government will arrest and persecute them! I asked some local leaders and co-workers: "Can two or three people gather together and still be arrested?" He said no. How should we preach the gospel in the Islamic world in the future? Can you use groups? Can you use large gatherings? impossible! Can two or three people do it? Can!

Jesus said:“For wherever two or three are gathered together in my name, there I am in their midst.” (Matthew 18:20)Why does Jesus say that two or three people gather together? Because those who participate in the gathering have no burden and do not need to prepare a sermon to feed them. Instead, everyone can share life face to face and bear life together. This is the cultivation and practice of discipleship. The teachings of the Disciple Family Church are handed over to professionals from all walks of life. The Lily Network Center has the best resources, speakers and conferences. After everyone is equipped and cultivated, they go out to practice in the field. Everyone has a direct relationship with God, everyone faces life, everyone serves the Lord, and everyone is a priest. How can we deeply share life in a gathering of twenty people? But it’s okay if there are only two or three. So now I encourage people to do DNA. Couples can start doing it and become a team. Jesus will send you to start at home. What you need to pay attention to is whether you have A or not. How do you contact non-Christians? When you reach out to them and love them, they have the opportunity to become children of God. Then the brother finds another brother, the sister finds another sister, and the DNA is doubled. If you want to share your life in depth, brothers should not look for sisters, and sisters should not look for brothers. This relationship of caring for and watching over each other is called a body. With this kind of disciple house church, the whole world can be a church!

Journalist profile

Ma Lin is from Beijing and Wu Xianshui is from Taipei. The couple follow God with one heart and are currently students at North American True Evangelical Seminary.